Debbie Copple I'd like to welcome you and thank you for coming tonight, and also compliment you. It shows a great deal of responsibility for you to take some time out of your busy lives to come and participate in what it takes to make this nation work, and that isn't just sitting home watching TV, but by getting involved and getting out and talking to your neighbors and friends and getting educated. So I want to thank you for taking the time to do that. And right now that task is done. Please join me in the pledge of allegiance.

Norma Bruns Thank you. Why, it's a pleasure to be here. If you feel so inclined to [unintelligible] up so we're cozier, but I know people like to sit in the back. I do, too, when I go to functions. So I don't blame you for that. The League of Women voters is an organization that has the purpose of promoting political responsibility to informed and active participation as citizens in government, and I think that this is how we like to do it. To run candidates' meetings and to give opportunity for people to discuss pros and cons of issues. I'm sorry that we don't have an equal group here, but we will certainly survive, I think, and I hope that some of you here has some hard questions to ask these folks, because that's what it takes, if you have some nagging questions that have been bothering you about this issue. Because it is a big step for a city to make, and you'll be faced with that May 20^th. And I've seen a lot of signs when we drove up here, Rowena and I did, so I know there's a lot of interest in this issue here. And I'm looking forward to hear what you folks have to say. My colleague and friend from the League of Women Voters, Rowena Miller, is sitting in the front there, and she is going to do -- [applause, Norma laughs appreciatively] it isn't often that we get applause, and I think that's wonderful -- but she is sort of our "police officer" here, because she'll keep these folks in tow here and give them a warning sign and ending sign when their three minutes is up.

"As the editor of the newsletter ["Sultanites for the Truth"] in opposition to Sultan Proposition #1, I am writing to inform you why I won't be present at the forum tonight. I am asking you to read this statement to the audience at the beginning of tonight's function. I appreciate the effort that Debbie Copple made in trying to get this discussion. However, because of a work commitment, which must come first for me, I am not able to attend. I approached a couple city council members about their participation. They indicated that their appearance on the panel would accentuate the division in the council. They believe that their position is to represent the people of the city, and not to try and tell the people how to think or vote. My first thought was to try to get people from outside of the area, who live under each of the types of government, to come and address the issues as they saw them in their community. I believe this would be a more relevant way to address the issue, based on actual, first-hand experience living under each system, rather than opinions based on personal beliefs. I did not have the time to pursue that. Regretfully, the "NO" side of the issue will not be properly represented, if at all. If I were able to attend, my three key issues would have been, First, a "NO" vote means you would retain your right to vote and elect your city's executive. Number two, an increased cost in the excess of $100,000 per year and expenses has to be paid in some way. Would it be done by a reduction in city government, such as fewer police officers, or would it be by increasing taxes? And third, all the power would be in the hands of a select few members of the council. This means that those making the laws we have to live under would have no one to stop them from passing unjust and unfair laws. The city manager cannot veto the council. Respectively, Bart Dalmasso." Back to top

John Dick Hi. I'm John Dick. I am a "YES" person here, so I will read the statement I have here. It is time for Sultan to change their regime. A regime is a form of government. It is time to replace a form of government that has been in place far too long -- [interrupted, someone asked that he speak into the mic] -- Hello…??? Can we start over? It is time for Sultan's regime to change. A regime is a form of government. It is time to replace our form of government that has been in place far too long. It is time for our city to step into the 21^st Century and become the representative form of government we all want. By voting "yes" on May 20^th for Proposition #1 in the City of Sultan, you'll get just that. A "yes" vote will get a seven-member council elected by us, by the people, leaders of the community that have our best interests at heart. Not their wallets. A "yes" vote will get the professional manager working 40 to 50 hours a week just so our city hall can serve us better. City services are important to all of us, not just the privileged few. A "yes" vote will give us the ability to work for the future of our city, and the quality of life that brought us to Sultan in the first place, whether we've been here for 6 days or 600 years, we all live here now, and that's what counts. The city is growing, and for generations people have declared war on growth and urban sprawl. No one has been able to stop it, and it will happen. Every time someone makes a decision to raise their family here, our city will grow. How it will grow is up to us. Do we want illegal building, unenforced codes along with unjustified attacks on council members and police officers and the police department? Do we do the "city code shuffle," or do we bring in a professional manager to manage our city? The choice is ours. I want my city to be professional. I want quality homes built. I want more than just another gas station-oil change-car wash-burger place on the highway. I want to bring in quality businesses that employ family-wage jobs and that give this city a place [suggested: "for people"] to come to instead of just to stop and get gas at. A "yes" vote on Proposition #1 for the City of Sultan will not raise your taxes. A "yes" vote will not take away anyone's right to vote. No one can do that to you. Vote "yes" for Sultan on the road to our future. That's what we're here for.Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you. Now, I think I will ask if there -- is there anyone who would like to speak on the other side now? I really do prefer having -- all right, sir? If you would come up to this mic, or you can come up on the stage. That would be lovely. You want to come up here? Please do. The League always feels more comfortable when we have equal sides. Okay, and your name?

Norma Bruns Sam Wold. Okay.

Sam Wold I see members, you members of city council here. Members of city council, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Sam M. Wold [gives address]. My wife, Irene(?) and I have [unintelligible; "160" is all that can be discerned from the 3-4 words uttered] behind us, of which 90 have been spent in Sultan. My education has had the most impact from my grandmother and a one-room school teacher. A couple of things from my grandmama, who incidentally was a [unintelligible] over in the sand in the downtown park. If you want to -- number one -- if you want to keep your mind, body and soul like you want the air you breathe and water you drink -- cool, clear, clean and pure -- you will be fine all your life. Number two, whatever happens, do not panic. My teacher, Miss Carlton, who was 20 years old, had two years of [unintelligible] college, got us all these grades, took two tests a year, one county and one [unintelligible]. Taught us responsibility, honesty and the importance of the word, "cooperation" and doing our share and a little more. [She] Stressed the importance of voting. Stressed the facts about voting, millions upon millions of people that died for the right to vote, do not, under any pretense, sell or give up your vote to anyone. She also told us to ask [unintelligible] question of bureaucrats government: Number one, why?; number two, what?; number three, where?; number four, when?; and five, "how much?" You people should all be able to answer these questions through the city council, and you should. Because no one is more familiar with it, our problems, than you are. We have hired a city council, a mayor, to do the job, and so let's get on with it and do it. I thank you very much. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you, sir.

Norma Bruns I'm going to ask you, maybe, after all of this, maybe we'll have a big round of applause for everybody, too. Okay. So we got -- Thank you. I'm glad, I appreciate your coming up. I really do. Thank you, sir. All right, Mr. Kirkman.

Jeff Kirkman Good evening. My name is Jeff Kirkman. I'm a relatively new resident of Sultan. I moved here about two and a half years ago into the much-disputed and much-troubled Willow Run. That should say a lot to you. What really struck me about this city was the beauty of it. We moved here from California, Southern California, the L.A. area. We thought this would be a charming little town to bring up our son in and be a part of a community. Well, about six months into living here, we noticed some trouble with our little development. We found out that, wow, our lot sizes are not to code. Lo and behold, we can't park on one side of our street, because the street doesn't meet code on widths. We had a dangerously-placed fire hydrant. We have unfinished parks. And suddenly we thought, "Wow, there's something wrong." We go to city hall and say, "Hey, guys, what's going on?" And all we got was the cold shoulder, and promises of meetings, never kept. The building department being called and saying to them, "Hey, you're in violation. They're still building." And they would not do anything about it. Since then I've also learned about the LID 97-1 [Wagley's Creek]. Wow. Again, city somehow overran the costs. The costs for that LID tripled, costing those land owners down there triple the amount of what they were assessed before, and promised. Again, the city fails to enforce codes. Then a little incident happens, Date Street. That neighborhood was supposed to have a park. It was promised to them. It was on the plat map. But it's nowhere to be found. There's a house instead, there. Again, the city failed to enforce the codes, enforce what is meant to be. All these things infringe on the people's right, and their quality of life. It infringes even if you don't live in this neighborhood. It infringes on your right[s] [if] the city fails to uphold its judiciary duty. I'm hopeful that we will get a new government, and a responsible one, and I feel that with a professional manager, you will get that. Thanks. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you. And now can we have somebody come up, like Mr. Wold did very bravely here? And speak on the other side? Okay, well, maybe that -- Oh, here comes somebody. So that will make it even. Because we had a con, and now we have somebody else. Sir, if you will introduce yourself.

Gary Broughton My name is Gary Broughton, and I'm sure a lot of people [unintelligible] live here quite awhile, know who I am. I've lived here for 50 -- over 50 years. I've had a fighting interest in this town. Talking to the person who just had said something about having an examiner here --

Norma Bruns Can you hear him?

Gary Broughton Can you hear me fine? Anybody -- ? Okay.

Norma Bruns Yeah, put your mic up a little, bring your mic up a little closer.

Gary Broughton Okay.

Norma Bruns There ya go.

Gary Broughton Okay. We were talking -- there we go -- we were talking about overruns. And our overruns in this city are….are basically a result of our council. The council had an administrator when we built city hall. Our administrator, I was very close on watch -- I'm, I'm a builder. {Audio .wav file, 340 kb] I'm not a developer. I build two or three houses a year. I make a living in this town. I've lived in this town all my life. I have a real investment in it because of it. I have a father that's lived here 75 years. I've had a, I had a grandfather that was a mayor here for 24 years. It was an excellent town. I went through the logging industry. I went up to the point that it is today. We had a great government. The government has gone to hell in the last five to six years. Now, I don't know why. It's that continual bickering. And all of a sudden now, with, with things that have gone in the city -- I know the city hasn't been perfect. And there ain't a perfect person out there. But we're gonna make mistakes. And we gotta work together as a city to make it better. And I don't know why, why the council is suing each other. You and I have a vote. These people that are suing our city and are costing money that isn't necessary, and all of a sudden now we're trying to get rid of the mayor. I'm hoping I can keep this in line and I don't jump too much. I've got an awful lot on my mind. But I do love this city. And you guys are trying, or they're trying the worst to try and change it. Especially -- and I don't mean anything against the new people living here, but the city has developed into quite a little town. We are very proud of our little town. And, and getting back to when he was talking about an administrator, city hall was supposed to have been built for a million and a half dollars. All right, I was there against it because I knew it was going to cost more than a million and a half dollars. I don't know how many times I went to city council and said, "You can't do it for that." [And they said] "It's not going to cost us anything. Shit, we got low-profile bonds, isn't going to cost us much for the bonds, it isn't going to -- " We had a, had an administrator by the name of Trippett. Well, this is an administrator. This is the person that was running the city. Okay, you take, you take that, that, that person there. I walked up to him one day and I said, 'Hey, Mr. Trippett," I says, "why, why don't we put this up for a vote? This belongs to the -- the city belongs to the people. They should have the right to vote on this, on this city hall." I says, "And it's such a big thing. We've got lots (sic) of money, but I don't think we can do it for that." There was three people on the council that also elected the people that are on the council here today -- What are you saying? [Norma Bruns called "time"] Okay, give me a -- Okay --

Norma Bruns Your three minutes are up.

Gary Broughton Oh, okay. Gimme, gimme one minute. This is very important.

Gary Broughton Okay, those people to this day, when I ask them, "Why don't we vote on this?" They've come back and they said, "You don't -- we don't have to ask you to vote. We don't have to have your permission to vote on this." And I said, "Why? It's the people's city hall. We know the city hall's too small. It's not going to do what we need." "But we don't -- but we don't have to have you to vote." And so in doing so, this administrator come up and said, "Gary, why are you the only one against this?" And another councilman come up to me, he says, "You're not the only one against this." And there was another councilman said the same thing. And Trippett said, stepped back and he just kind of…[trailed off]. But that was an administrator. That was an appointed administrator. He was the one that was basically running the town. And I know that, because my brother was the mayor. And he was telling me -- and he was telling my brother what to do.

Norma Bruns Sir, maybe you can get some of that from the questions from the audience.

Gary Broughton Okay.

Norma Bruns Okay.

Gary Broughton And so if that's -- if that's the way you want to run this city, then fine. You get your administrator, and I'll tell you one thing: He's got control. And you lose your vote. And you lose the right to tell, to have that person run the city -- Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank--thank you. All right. We have Mr. -- or is it Doctor? -- Raney?

Mark Raney Thank you.

Norma Bruns And I don't think it was said. After everybody has spoken, then each of you will have a chance to speak for a couple of minutes and ask questions, so we can really get some of your questions answered, okay? Thank you.

Mark Raney First let me say that I'm speaking tonight as a private citizen, and not as a city council member. I've found that that's a difficult thing, for me to be a private citizen anymore. In fact, I found one effective way to get at people who stand up and stand for what's right versus what's wrong, is to make them a city council member and give them all the information in executive session that you can't talk about. And believe me, those of us who are inside the city government know there are problems. And what we've looked to do, whether inside or outside a city government, is come up with a solution that's a system fix, rather than a person fix. Because we all know that individuals have their faults. We all do. And we all have our strengths. What we've looked at here with the system that the council and a city manager form of government advocates, is a system that has better checks and balances that is designed to do specifically what the city of Sultan needs it to do right now. I'm not attempting to dictate what people think or what they should do, I am, however, representing a significant portion of Sultan residents who feel that something's wrong. I think that most people would agree that there has been something wrong in Sultan, whether it's five years, six years, ten years. I've talked to elderly residents and not-so-elderly residents who can tell me horror stories about things that happened 10, 15, 20, 50 years ago. I've been here for 10 years. I don't know what fraction of a citizen that makes me according to some people's criteria, but in my mind I'm a citizen of Sultan the minute I walked in here and I registered to vote. And I think it's an insult to, to think otherwise. A lot of things around this town have been built by the combination of what's good about the older part, and the older people of Sultan, and the new folks that have come into town. And when new folks come in, there are new ideas. To reject those new ideas because you didn't grow up here or your grandfather didn't grow up here, I think, is crazy and it's one of the most un-American things I can think about. One of the things that keeps coming up is a flat deception about cost. Our city budget contains, and has contained, $75,000 a year for a city administrator. To hire a city manager might be a bit more and it might be as much as $100,000 or $110,000. If you break that down per citizen, that's $4 to $5 per year per citizen. And I think that's the cost of what it cost us to defend the, the, illegal placing of Chief Walser on leave last year and covering the officers' overtime. In one year, we'd cover that. What I'd like to say is that this government is about fairness. It's not -- we're not trying to polarize. We're trying to unite it. And the way that we feel we can unite this is with a government that allows people to have their say, to stand up and to not have your house inspected or some sort of retribution come because you don't eat breakfast in a certain place, or you don't run around with some group of people. It's just not right. This allows you to vote. This allows you to pick your representatives, and they hire a professional to administrate a complicated city government. Thank you. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you.

Norma Bruns Well, let's clap for all of them… [applause continues, some whistles and yells] 'Cause it takes some courage, I think, sometimes in an issue that evidently has created some emotional response in this town, as it does in many towns. Last year we did a similar meeting for Marysville, which had the same issue on the ballot. And I know it creates some emotional response from people. But -- and I'm sure that our panelists will keep it nice and civil tonight, and so we'll get along fine.

Male [unintelligible]?

Norma Bruns Sure. Well, you have -- actually I read the letter, so you do have three. Okay. So we'll come up here, all right?

Rowena Two minutes?

Norma Bruns Two minutes, um-hm.

Gary Owens I've lived in town since 1986, first on the Basin Road and now downtown here. I'm adamantly opposed to a city administrator. I can't see where the city can justify the cost, and when you, you mentioned the budget, $75,000 a year that's going to be there, maybe it's $100,000. What about severance packages, when we find out that that administrator won't do the job? I think it would be better, perhaps, to take a look at the city charter or the incorporation papers. Perhaps make some minimum requirements for the mayor, if that's specifically what you're targeting is the mayor. I look more towards the council working with the mayor as a team effort, throughout the entire city and for the city. Yes, we've had problems in the past. We've had inspection problems in the past. We've had code enforcement problems in the past. A lot of things have changed throughout the years. The state laws, I believe some of the laws within the city have changed throughout the years also. We have GMA and its impact, [the] Growth Management Act. That wasn't there years ago. We have different building requirements that are, that are in place now than what they were years ago. Our technology has advanced so much. There's a lot that we know now that we didn't in, in years past. Put away the things about the good ol' boy network. Put away the things about 50 or 20 years ago that went on. It's what's going on today and it's what's important today. America -- we elect every four years, the council that we elect, whatever the term is for that individual position, that's what's important and that's what keeps growth happening. That's what renews the government within this city. Thank you. Back to top

Norma Bruns Does someone want to speak on the other side now? We'll keep it -- Yes sir?

Randy (?) Hi. I'm Randy [cannot discern last name] with Sultan High School. And I'm looking at this paper and it says, "protect your right to vote." Well, this is a representative that -- representative Democracy that we have. So by voting in the city council members, we're putting our faith into their decisions by voting them in. And if there was a direct Democracy where we'd have to vote on everything, nothing would get done, and it would cost as much money. Thanks. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you. All right. Who else wants to come up and ask a question of our panels or comment? Yes, ma'am?

Marianne Naslund Hi. I'm Marianne Naslund. I'm a homeowner. I was on the design review committee for the community center, and I know that a lot of the components were cut out, due to costs. Having served on the committee, if my recollection is correct, I didn't have an increase in my property taxes to repay the balance on the building. Mr. Broughton, can you explain to me how we are paying for this building you said costs so much?

Gary Broughton [Begins his statement before Ms. Naslund finished her question; missed his first few words] Okay. I don't know. But I've also been stating that it, in the, in the beginning of it, it was -- what was the initial cost was supposed to be? $1.4 [million]?

Marianne Naslund Um, closer to $2 million.

Gary Broughton Well, what I was talking -- when we were talking, sitting at the council, was about $1.4. That's what Trippett told me. When it was all over, nobody was accountable for it. The city hasn't -- people have to pay for it somehow. It may not be in your, in the raise of your, your taxes, but it still has to be paid, lady. And when -- and the last guess was about $3 million, and nobody's accountable for it. Nobody -- I mean, they, they okayed it. They went for [unintelligible]. Now, who's responsible for it? The taxpayer?

Marianne Naslund Having served on the committee, it was my understanding that rental income from the Post Office, as well as the $7,000-plus a year that we saved on non-rental payments on the old police department, was what was going to repay the balance.

Gary Broughton Okay, that's (sic) may be true. But that money could be spent in better ways, I would imagine. We wouldn't have to put it toward the city hall if it hadn't had such a big overrun. Now, I agree, maybe this money is going for that. But right now the city is hurting. The workers don't have enough money. We're buried [unintelligible]. Now, this is what I've heard and I'm not saying it's fact, but what I've heard from the workers that they're, that they're just being hung on, there's not being any raises, they're not getting anything because certain [unintelligible] of us --

Marianne Naslund [unintelligible] handing out pink slips. The city's not the only one.

Gary Broughton That's right. Now, why can't we use this money for better? We know we gotta pay off bills. That shouldn't be there to be paid off.

Marianne Naslund But the bonds are based on a 7- or 15-year bond repayment schedule --

Gary Broughton [unintelligible, interrupting] --

Marianne Naslund -- from rental income.

Gary Broughton You're exactly --

Marianne Naslund With the money. Property taxes aren't going up. Why would I be against it?

Gary Broughton Because why would, why wouldn't we want to transfer that money to something that it wasn't supposed to be transferred for?

Marianne Naslund But property income [unintelligible] there to pay for new property.

Gary Broughton That may be true. But why couldn't we just --

Marianne Naslund Well, I'm getting misinformation in the mail and I want to know why.

Gary Broughton Well, they -- I don't know. This is what I've been told. This is what -- I'm not saying I'm absolute[ly] sure, sure on everything. Nobody is.

Marianne Naslund When are you -- when you're told something, do you call up city hall or --

Gary Broughton Yes I did.

Marianne Naslund And you found out, because --

Gary Broughton I, I've heard --

Marianne Naslund -- when I hear stuff, I go and ask.

Gary Broughton I heard this through, through council, from the council people. I will not give, give names. I would not bring up something that just -- out of nowhere.

Marianne Naslund But going back to all the misinformation that's going on, that seems to be what's happening.

Gary Broughton I, there's no mis--misinformation that city, city hall had cost about twice what they, what would, was stated at council, in [unintelligible].

Marianne Naslund Less than half a million is twice what it was originally started at.

Gary Broughton It started out at $1.4 [million] and I was told it was closer to $3 [million] when it was done. Now tell me, if it's wrong, call me a liar --

Marianne Naslund I believe that's incorrect.

Norma Bruns Okay. Let's try to keep it to the issue. But I understand that you're relating to some information that you got about this issue? Is that right?

Marianne Naslund Yeah. Having served on the design review committee for the community center, I'm saying I believe his information to be incorrect. Back to top

Norma Bruns Okay. Thank you.

Mark Raney Norma?

Norma Bruns Yes?

Mark Raney Can I respond to Mr. Owen's comments?

Norma Bruns Sure.

Mark Raney I'd like to respond to Mr. Owen's comments. I believe that he has stated that there was some reason to believe that this was about getting rid of the mayor and taking away the vote, and I would, I hope that you could see that this is about putting in a system that, that allows for better representation and checks and balances. The other thing that he stated was that there are far more laws, regulations and constraints on government now-a-days. And the qualities that it takes to become elected are not the same qualities that are necessary to run the multi-million dollar corporation like the City of Sultan. Our budget this year is $1.4 to $1.5 million in the general fund, and we have over $8.5 million in savings, bonds, various funds. That's a lot of money. I don't think there are too many people who live in town who have the training to administer that, who know personnel law, who know development law, who know growth management law. It's a quagmire. And the way to solve that is to hire a professional manager. A professional manager is different than a city administrator. The administrator works at the pleasure of the mayor. If he displeases the mayor or she displeases the mayor, they're fired. The city manager has to displease four out of the seven council members who are well aware of the budget constraints or what a severance package would cost. And so there are checks and balances on there. You get things sorted out because it costs money before you get it goofed up, not have to go back and fix it later from [unintelligible]. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you. Okay, all right. Um-hm?

Gary Broughton I have a --

Norma Bruns Put your mic closer to you.

Gary Broughton I have a statement from Monroe. And this, and this is a statement, and, and in Monroe, the [unintelligible] is hiring, is having hiring trouble with their city administrator right now. This comes from a very high individual that works for the City of Monroe. He's, he was appointed by the council, what we're, what they're talking about now. Because he could be pushed around by the will of the council. In other words, the council hired somebody that thought in their way, thought their way. Is, is, I mean, is this, is this what you want? I mean, do you want to hire -- have them have the ability to hire -- and you know what it is -- and then have them -- and they're going to hire somebody that, that thinks their direction. That means that [unintelligible]. You, you hired this council and put in, put in there, but they come up and they put this professional in there. I don't know if the number of years that you're going to call (sic) which makes you professional, or what, or, or what you do makes you professional, but I know maybe this a little bit -- but I know if I, as a carpenter, if I had a four-year guy come out of school and want to build my house, and I had a guy having been in the, in the business for, for 20 years and never been in, in a higher, higher education, I'd hire the guy who's 20 years in experience. And a lot of this pee--a lot of these people that we hire and we, and we elect, are people that have been in this town for years, and basically know what, how the town is run. Or has been run . And we can relate to these people. And that, and that's the point of -- we can't relate to this administrator because as soon as we, we give this, this power to the council, you're, you're in the hands of the council. The thing is, we --

Norma Bruns Gary?

Gary Broughton -- you have the chance to, to vote these people out.

Norma Bruns Thank you, Gary.

Gary Broughton But in this thing, you don't. Back to top

Norma Bruns Well, thank you. Who else?

Jeff Kirkman I'd like to respond to that.

Norma Bruns Okay. All right.

Jeff Kirkman First of all, I don't believe Monroe has a --

Female City manager.

Jeff Kirkman -- a city manager. They have, they're looking for an administrator.

Gary Broughton Administrator. They have an administrator.

Jeff Kirkman And what we're looking to is to change the form of government where the council has the responsibility towards the people, and oversees a professional manager who can manage the city affairs. Dr. Raney is absolutely correct. Running a city this size is like running a multi-million dollar corporation. We do need the expertise. We do need the know-how, and has the city grows, and people want this city to grow economically and in population, that responsibility will grow with it. You need the experience. Maybe in five, six years from now you will have a city large enough to actually hire a professional mayor. But in the meantime, we need all the help we can get to get this to a professional level. Thank you.

Norma Bruns Thank you. All right, from our audience, I saw somebody start up and was stopping mid-track and - c'mon, sir.

Al Hunstad I really don't think I need a microphone but --

Norma Bruns Well, sure you do.

Al Hunstad How you doin', Gary?

Gary Broughton Hi.

Al Hunstad But I think everybody here pretty well knows me.

Norma Bruns I don't know you.

Al Hunstad My name's Al Hunstad and I live in the Dyer district. Now I've been here 30, 35 years in the Town of Sultan. And I'm a newcomer! They look at me like I just moved into town yesterday. I worked for the City. I was a police officer here and I was the temporary police chief for awhile. I've watched this town from 30 years ago. I watched the mayors and I watched the council. I watched councilmen that would lean their chair up against the wall and go sound asleep. Come time to vote, they'd grab their chair, pull 'em down and say, "Raise your hand." I watched councilmen come in, some were so drunk they couldn't find their chair. Guys would have to lead them in. Even though it was a council, they'd have to [unintelligible]. But that's the past. [Audio .wav file, 435 KB] This town will not succeed. It will become more depressed, if we don't get rid of this good ol' boy system. It's got to go. Everybody here -- [interrupted by applause and cheers] -- and this has been going on for 30 years, I know of. I've watched mayors stand up and say to a councilman or somebody, "If you don't sit down and shut up, I'll knock ya down!" That's the type of government we gotta get rid of. We need a mayor that doesn't own property, that has no business in town, but yet is smart enough and has enough integrity to lead this town. Not to line his own pockets or to benefit him and his cronies. We need somebody with enough integrity and guts to stand up and say, "Let's work for us." Now, I've watched things go by. Broughton knows me. He built my house! I still consider him a good friend. I know the whole family. But yet, his dad, granddad, I understand, was just one hellava mayor. I need a little bit more [time; some called "time" on him; laughter ensues]. But now is the time. And Gary knows this. Roger [Broughton, Gary and Bob's father] knows this. It's time to get rid of the good ol' boys. Let's work for us. Let's get a qualified person. 'Cause what we got is amateur mayors. If they can't line your pockets -- they really don't know what they're doing. How many lawsuits have we had since Koehler run -- Let's see who came here? -- and Walker? I, I don't think John [Walker] had any lawsuits at all, but -- Back to top

Norma Bruns I tell you what, why don't we let somebody else talk, and then you can talk again. I'll let you talk again.

Norma Bruns All right? Does anybody up here want to respond to that, or how about the audience

Jeff Kirkman I could actually respond. Just not actually a response, but sort of feedback on what he said.

Norma Bruns Okay.

Jeff Kirkman One of, one of the things that I'm mystified on is, everyone out here who's against this professional manager, cannot answer this question: Where is the park that belongs to Willow Run? If the system that you have had for one century works so well, where's the tot lot in Date Street? Where's the park in Willow Run? Why are the roads out of compliance? There's something amiss here, guys. Thanks.

Norma Bruns I just had somebody over here on this side.

Gary Broughton Okay. In, in, in response to these parks and stuff that you want, we hired a planning, a planning examiner to make sure those were in. This is not, this was not elected by you. These were just were (sic) done by the council planner. This person okayed this project. This project that he talks about is the way the project came down. Now that it's come down this way, all we've heard is bad things about it. But it was okayed by the council. It was okayed by the planner --

Female from the audience No, it wasn't.

Gary Broughton -- no, no park was okayed?

Female No. No sign-off.

Gary Broughton Well, it may not be no sign-off, but in order for that project to go ahead -- I, I have a little, just a little problem. In order for it to go ahead, certain requirements had to be met. They just can't let those people go in there and start building those things. They had to have had the, had to have a layout of how it was going to be built. Okay, if that park was taken out, that was the, that…every time I've run into, I've had to go in front of the council to okay something. And I've done that many a times (sic). I had a, I just lately had a, had a thing on -- with the schools and stuff [asked for a credit on impact fees he was required to pay]. And you bla--you're blaming the wrong people. You're blaming the person that built that complex down there. They had it okayed. They made -- you [unintelligible] been she, if it were okay to do it. [many members of the audience members laugh derisively, then begin talking amongst themselves while Gary continues] But you guys are missing -- you're missing the point. The City was just as bad, because the City allowed it. The City allowed -- an administrator isn't going to stop it, it it's supposed [unintelligible] a decision. Back to top

Norma Bruns I know somebody down here had a response. Did you want to speak? Or who, who's down here? Yeah. This lady here. Yeah. I want to try to keep it to the subject, so if you can relate what you're saying to either side of the proposition, because you're all going to have to make up our mind in a few weeks here. Okay.

Elizabeth Kirkman My name's Liz Kirkman. I'm a resident in Willow Run East Homeowners Association. I'm also the Vice-President of the HOA there. We are having a lot of debts that we're going to accrue because things were not enforced. We have no park. We have to worry about trees, that they may be falling on houses. We have to worry about our storm system. We have a reserve study to do. We are going to have to probably go to court to fight to get our books [accounts/financials] from the developer, who has [unintelligible] out to us. We are going to have to do a lot of things. We have been trying to be very, very positive in our dealings with the City. We are trying not to blame the City, but we need enforcement. We did turn to the City, asking for not releasing our bond, when Valworks was released. We have been trying very hard to be patient. We are not anymore patient. We have to think about the community. We also have to think about the future. I am also looking at the elementary school. I am one of those people that will probably be laid off, among a few others. Why? Because there are not mitigation fees being paid from developers, who should be paying the fees for the infrastructure for the city. Why? We need it. We need it for our children, for our future, for everybody. There is no excuse for it. At all. I am sorry if I'm a little emotional, but it's been many years we've been going through this, and we're trying to do this so that it's legal and that it's fair to everyone. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you. Okay. Yes?

Mark Raney I'd like to respond to Mr. Broughton's assertion, because I believe he's been given incorrect information. In fact, one of the main problems with Willow Run was that it did not come back to the council, as state law requires. There's an RCW that requires that any plat map changes come back before the city council to be signed, that plat map was changed six times, and each time signed by certain individuals inside city hall and the mayor. A professional would have known that those needed to come back before the city council for public hearings and those problems addressed. That was not done. And frankly, when I called the mayor up and I asked him about it, he said, "No, that didn't happen." And I said, "I have copies of these with your signature on it." And his response was, "Well, if I'd've (sic) signed it, I didn't know what I was assigning (sic)." [Loud audience reaction; one clear comment was, "Oh, my God!"] We need a professional manager who knows what those plat maps mean, what you have to get the developers to do before you sign off of it and release their bond.

Norma Bruns Thank you. Back here. And you -- Okay, you're next.

Kathryn McDonald My name is Kathryn McDonald. And I've been here two and a half years. And I moved here because I thought Sultan was really beautiful and I'd like it to stay beautiful. And I'd kind of like to [unintelligible] on what Dr. Raney just said. I became involved in Sultan issues shortly after I arrived, because I heard about the gravel pit, and the DNR plan to build up on the Sultan River about a mile from town. And one of the things that -- and I was appalled at the idea of a 600-acre gravel pit close, that close to town and the impact it would have on everybody's life here, and the beauty of our area. And one of the things -- and I became very involved in, in helping to stop the gravel pit -- but one of the things that was most upsetting and actually, appalling to me, was that the City received notice from DNR -- Department of Natural Resources -- that this gravel pit was planned, and the letter was put in a drawer somewhere. And, you know, I'm not in a position to point fingers about who decided that Sultan citizens shouldn't know about this gravel pit, or have the opportunity to comment in it or be involved in the planning, but it seems to me that if we had a professional city manager here in town and he got that letter from DNR saying, "We plan to put in a gravel pit and we want Sultan citizens to be able to comment on the impacts of that gravel pit," the professional city manager, who had no personal interest in -- or for one, wouldn't stand to benefit from a gravel pit -- would not put that letter in a drawer somewhere. That person would properly notify Sultan residents that this is planned. That's not what happened under our current system of government. And that's why I think one of the -- just one minor example -- actually, it's a major example [chuckles a bit] -- of why we need professional government here. And, and government -- somebody running the City who doesn't have personal -- doesn't stand to benefit personally. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you. Okay. Yes sir. I want to tell you that this is wonderful. We have had meetings like this in every city in Snohomish County, cities much bigger than Sultan, and this is a great crowd, and I think you very much. I think it's great that so many people are interested in this issue and are speaking so eloquently about it. Thank you.

Roy Bysegger {Mr. Bysegger is the city administrator that Mayor Rowe fired for revealing the DNR notice had been "buried," finally located in the Building Official's office after the comment period had elapsed. A well-known and respected attorney is representing Mr. Bysegger regarding issues related to Rowe's firing, working on contingency.] Excuse me for having my back against the panel, but this is --

Norma Bruns That's all right.

Roy Bysegger -- this is to the public. I indicated that I was not going to speak because I'm not a resident of Sultan. My name is Roy Bysegger, but I used to live in Sultan and I used to work for the City of Sultan. What we're dealing with on this vote is very critical. It is a structure of power: who is responsible. If you have a city manager, the city manager is hired by the council. Sultan has a seve-member council. That council is elected by the people. The city manager has to be responsible to the whole council, and that is by majority vote. If he loses on a 4-to-3 vote, he can be out. But a city administrator, he's only responsible to one person. And that's the mayor. And if the mayor doesn't like what is happening, that city administrator is gone. And if that city administrator tries to correct something that he knows is not right, but the mayor doesn't approve of, he's gone. So what you're doing is changing the power structure, where the people are going to be responsible to an elected body who sets policy, and a city manager sees that that policy is implemented. Currently you have, where there's a mayor elected and a council is elected, but only the mayor ultimately is going to have the power. Thank you. Back to top

Norma Bruns All right. Any of the panel want to respond to that at this point? You'll have a chance at the end, maybe, for a one-minute last speak here. How about that? Who else here?

Male Way in the back.

Norma Bruns Way back, okay! I feel like the TV [unintelligible] where they say, "C'mon on down!" or something like that.

Voices Price is Right.

Norma Bruns The Price is Right, that's right.

Steve Fox My name is Steven Fox. I do not live in the City of Sultan itself, and I'm requesting permission to address you and [unintelligible] --

Voices [requesting him to speak louder].

Norma Bruns I think, raise your -- Yeah.

Steve Fox My name is Steven Fox. I do not live in the City of Sultan and I am requesting permission to speak to you on behalf of some of my experiences with a professional administrator.

Norma Bruns Can you hear him?

Voices No.

Steve Fox Can you now?

Norma Bruns Talk right into the mic.

Steve Fox Guess [unintelligible], huh?

Norma Bruns There ya go. You have to talk right into it.

Steve Fox I happen to be one of your fire commissioners at your local fire department. I do not have permission from them to speak tonight. I've been with this community for about 10 years and I guess I buy gas here, but the bottom line for me is I have a been a member of Fire District 5 for about 11 years. When I first came here, we were a fire department growing, and we were growing with problems. Every time I turned around we were always meeting with the commissioners, asking them, "Would you please fire the current chief"? We would have a lot of in-fighting. And eventually, I choose to become a commissioner, and one of the first things that we decided to do was to recognize that we did not have the skills and the abilities to run a department; that we were now that size. We recognized that we needed a professional administrator, a fire chief; someone who actually did this for a living, had an education and training in that background. We also recognized that that would be expensive. It wouldn't just be a volunteer that wasn't compensated every month. We went out in the last 90s and we developed a public process to be able to select those chiefs. When you select the fire chief, you have other fire chiefs pick them for you, give you a list of qualified candidates. Then you can put in who you want as a qualified administrator. Don’t let your own people pick the qualified fire chief, because you can't tell who they are. They know who they are. We did that in the 90s. And we started paying people for that. We went through one chief, and he eventually had other commitments in the state of Montana, and we now have our current chief who's been here about five years. Our fire department is thriving. Yes, we are paying a lot of money for our chief, and he is earning every dime and a whole lot that we're currently not paying him. The next result is, you have the lowest tax rate of any paid fire department in Snohomish County. You have taxes that are lower here than your adjacent districts, because you have paid city fire staff that's qualified to do so. What you're being asked to do here is go for a professional administrator. I highly recommend that you do that, and I'd also like to tell you that District 5 needs a strong city to work with. This is your [unintelligible]. Thank you. Back to top

Norma Bruns Who else? You want to -- Oh, there ya go. Okay.

Quintin Young My name's Quintin Young on Willow Avenue here in Sultan. Dr. Raney, I've got a question for you as a council member, and I would like to follow up with a comment. As a council member, if you get input from citizens who have questions about the professional manager, or if you personally feel you have reason to question an action or a decision by the professional manager, is there a mechanism in place to - for you to bring up with the other council members and bring to a discussion and possibly, eventually to vote over that conduct of a professional manager?

Mark Raney I think that's a good question, because how government works is, is a cru--is crucial to understanding how this system might be of benefit, and certainly, in my opinion, would be. Questions come into council members, then are usually put into the committee that handles that. Say, if it was a question about sewer, it would come to the public works department, or committee. That would comprise, be comprised by three, of three council members. You can't have four together, without it being an open meeting, so you can't violate that. So you can have three. And we have committees that deal with police. We have committees that deal with public works. We have committees that deal with parks, schools, all the various services and the, and the other agencies that we integrate with. That would be the first place that the question would come to. Public, the public works committee would then discuss it, obtain information that we needed, and then make a recommendation onto the council. Likely it would be, then, put on as an agenda item, whether or discussion or for action, and then that would come out into the public. So a problem, by design in this system, becomes public. It's no longer decided behind closed doors. It has to be public. Because we can't talk about it with the fourth council member, without violating the Open Meetings Act.

Quintin Young Okay.

Norma Bruns You said you had a comment?

Quintin Young Yeah. So in my mind, I guess I kind of, I personally knew the answer to that. [good-natured chuckling from the audience] But the point I want to make to everybody here is that what you have is a situation where one of the big questions I hear is, "You're going to lose your right to vote." In my mind, if anybody wants to follow the logical progression of thought, if you just want to follow the points of thought of that, from one point to the next point -- "if this, then, therefore…if that, then, therefore…if not, then this" -- you're going to come to the conclusion that your votes mean a heck of a lot more in that situation. If things that you have a problem with come into question, then you are going to have your vote more directly count toward one of the seven people that every two years in some cycle you're going to be reelecting, you're actually closer to this person and closer to decisions about that person than you would otherwise be. and so the issue on whether your vote counts or not or whether you're going to lose your right to vote, is absolute nonsense. Your vote's going to mean a whole lot more because you're a lot closer to the people who are going to make those decisions about that manager. Any manager worth his salt who's been trained in city government is going to absolutely understand that accountability, and if this job means anything, not just here but the next one down the road, is going to have to play by stricter rules. Back to top

Norma Bruns Okay, thank you.

Norma Bruns All right. [unintelligible] people? Oh, there's somebody -- did you want to -- over on this side, did you -- anybody here want to answer that?

Male [I think this was Sam Wold] Anybody that says that your right to vote is a bunch of nonsense, not in my book, I can tell ya that.

Norma Bruns Well, I think…well, okay. All right. Does anybody else -- yes? And then you. Okay. Oh, we've got a line-up here. Good. All right.

Male I would just like to respond to the question about committees and who answers to who. The city administrator, I mean it's a fact of life as far as creatures. We're going to do whatever we can to survive. They're going to do what they can to please at least four out of the seven council members. And if we look at a committee to review that person, it depends on who's selected to that committee. And I think that there could be a real fallacy in that. You can get the choice people to be on Public Works or on your -- whatever the administration would be. So I don't think that's really a valid argument.

Ray Kistenmacher I'd like to counter that by saying it's a much more valid argument than having one man make all of that decision, and that would be the mayor. A council is much better. Back to top

Ed ["Cheeko"] Boucher My name is Ed Boucher, and I would like to make an observation and then ask a question if I could?

Norma Bruns Okay.

Ed Boucher The observation would be -- and I won't get personal on this -- but as I observe the whole situation where I see one individual in particular that was involved in a recall with the mayor. And then I see a, a, uh, the…same individual who was involved in asking for the resignation of the mayor. Uh…the, uh, suing of the mayor and council, etc. I see another individual with very, uh, unhappy with a neighbor for maybe good reason, maybe not, didn't get satisfaction out of the mayor or the council, and a third individual that's unhappy with a home he bought, and I don't blame him a bit. I wouldn't [have] bought there in the first place, but unhappy with the situation. And I see a lot of folks here that, from Willow and possibly even Eagle Ridge, I don't know, what are unhappy with this. Now to my point, I guess, is this isn't really about changing our government. This is about getting rid of the mayor. And my question is, why, why not just elect somebody that you folks want for mayor? That makes the sensible reason -- or thing to do, rather than try and change your form of government.

Norma Bruns Okay. Is that a question you have for someone?

Ed Boucher The last part was a question.

Norma Bruns Thank you. All right. Well, I think that probably is a good question because that, it's hard to say that that is the issue. The issue is proposition out of that, yeah. Okay.

Ed Boucher And the reasoning behind it, that's…. [trails off].

Norma Bruns Right. All right. So does somebody on this side want to tackle that?

John Dick I would. Cheeko, you are right. I am unhappy. I'm not unhappy with my neighbor. I love my neighbors. I'm unhappy with the fact that I can't get the City to enforce the codes that are on the book, because the -- we don't have a code enforcement officer. The building inspector doesn't want to enforce the codes, and he answers to the mayor.

Ed Boucher I believe I said I think that's why you're unhappy.

John Dick I am unhappy with the mayor because he does not have any accountability for any questions I've had for him. He doesn't allow me to even ask questions at a council meeting, even though some of us do. I asked the mayor for four and a half months, "Why did you fire my police chief? Why did you put my family in danger by cutting my police force to four officers? Why are you over-working these police officers and spending my money to pay them, when we had an over-qualified person [i.e., Chief Walser] sitting at home that we're paying also?" [someone tries to interrupt Mr. Dick] It's my three minutes, sir.

Ed Boucher Go ahead.

John Dick He hid behind the lawyer. He has never answered my question of why. The city council, they say they don't know why. There's no accountability there. And it was because of one individual. The council had nothing to do with any of that. And, yeah, I am unhappy with that. And that's why I'm up here.

Ed Boucher That's exactly what I'm saying. You're very unhappy with the mayor, and results. Why not elect a mayor that you want in that position?

John Dick It's not a mayor that I want, sir. It's a professional government run by a professional that will give us a quality city government. Not an unprofessional city government.

Ed Boucher Then just a quick short-cut. What makes you think that somebody from New York City or Albuquerque or whatever, is going to be concerned about your problem?

John Dick I'll put it in layman's terms. If, if you go to a grocery store, and the grocery store has different compartments, much like the city does, a grocery store has a manager that oversees the different department heads. That manager answers to the grocery store owners. We are the grocery store owners. We own the City of Sultan. We elect the body to represent us and the council. They hire a manager to run our store for us and take care of the different departments and allow the department heads to run their department, and they do it legally and they do it fairly and they do it without bias. And they do it. That's why we're here.

Norma Bruns Okay, if you have something to say, I'd appreciate it if you would come up to the mic. All right?

Mark Raney I have a response to him…

Norma Bruns All right. While you're responding, then somebody can go --

Mark Raney …because --

Norma Bruns -- she beat you to it. But you can stand in line. Okay. Let him respond.

Mark Raney Mr. Boucher made some vague comments that were directed at us about what we are and aren't and have done and have not done. I believe he intimated that I had something to do with the recall effort against the mayor. That is absolutely untrue. If there is any document anywhere and a signature and indication that links me there, I dare somebody to provide that that is not a forgery. The other, I did ask the mayor to resign. I asked the mayor to resign three weeks ago, when Mr. Humstead back there talked about mayors trying to threaten council members. Mayor Rowe three weeks ago asked me to step out behind the barn and settle something man-to-man. I was shocked that that would be done in this day and age in the public sector. That is not how I want my city run. If, I thought that a mayor would fix this town, we would run a candidate for mayor and he or she would be elected. But we don't believe that. We believe that this will be fixed with a professional government that doesn't give you an answer about some problem in the neighborhood based on whether or not your friends getting your man elected is the wrong way to think about government. You need to have a government that represents everybody fairly, regardless of who they are, who they work for, who they're related to or how long they've lived here. Back to top

Norma Bruns All right. Yes ma'am?

Karen McIntosh My name is Karen McIntosh [lives in Bryant's Corner], one of the new housing developments in town. I've lived here for about three years. And I am saddened by what is happening in our downtown. All I hear about is affordable housing, affordable housing. There is no place in this town for my family to move up into. None. All the houses that are being built are sub-standard or sub-standard lots. And I would like to see that changed by getting a professional person in this town so that my family will have a place to move up. This is a cute town. It has lots of potential. However, in the three years I've been here, there are no new businesses hardly at all in this town. And I think that can be resolved by having a professional person run this town instead of a substandard mayor. We will not be losing any city council seats. There still will be seven. But we will have someone who knows what they're doing to bring this town to what it needs to be, so that it will thrive for the residents that live here. Thank you. Back to top

Norma Bruns Do we have someone else here? We don't want to -- unless someone has something kind of new point to make. Are you walking to the microphone? Oh, good. You're so slow and deliberate. [laughter]

Tristan Berg Hello. My name is Tristin Berg. I'm a Sultan High School student, senior. I've lived here for 18 years. My mom's lived her a lot of her life. She's seen the administrator. She's seen the mayors. This is America. I don’t know of many situations where we only put all the power into one body, in this case the city council, which has not been able to get far beyond all the senseless and baseless bickering about stop signs and sidewalks. Frankly, we need to fix all this stuff. And I think maybe if we just tie the city council and the mayor's office closer together, maybe work together, maybe we can start fixing these things. I know that the mayor has tried to get the city to grow commercially and industrially. Quite frankly, the city needs it. We don't have the tax base to keep going at this rate. And I don't see how just getting a city manager would fix any of that. I don't know. Should we put all the power into the city council? Doesn't work too well already. I don't see how putting all power in the council would help at all. Back to top

Norma Bruns Okay. So -- oh, here comes somebody else here.

Female I feel I have to back that up just a little bit more. I believe that human nature is human nature. No matter what we do, whether we stick with the mayoracy (sic) or whether we go to a manager position, whoever we have, it doesn't matter. Human nature is human nature. Somebody eventually somewhere is going to have a clerk (sic) with somebody somewhere. We cannot change the way Americans are, the way humans are. Eventually, there's going to be somebody who's not going to agree with somebody. There's going to be somebody bickering and somebody here or the…somebody's not going to like somebody here. So he's not going to like [a] council member, or a council member's not going to like this person. It doesn't matter. The thing that everybody needs to keep in mind is our morals need to be kept in place, for starters. We have to all be morally right. And as long as we keep our morals and standard[s], we can keep our town together. That's what I believe in. Back to top

Norma Bruns Just come up if you have something to say. I think we'll wind this down pretty soon, but -- oh, we've got maybe 15 more minutes. Okay. Good.

Ray George My name is Ray George. I've heard the terms, "checks and balances" mentioned several times. To me, that implies like in our federal government, in our Constitution, a separation of powers between equal branches of government. And currently, if we have a city administrator who would be, as I understand it, nominated by the mayor, confirmed by the council, then he would work for the mayor. So all parties are involved in the hiring process. If we go to the form of council-manager, and the council hires on its own a manager and puts all the power in the manager, and there's no body of government, branch of government on an equal level with the council, there'd be only one branch of government. Where are the checks and balances? Where is the separation of powers? Back to top

Norma Bruns You know, sometimes clapping sort of increases the time here. So does somebody want to comment on that? That's sort of the question to those, I think, that are speaking in favor.

Mark Raney Mr. George, that's an excellent question. And I think the answer is simple. A council-manager form of government, gets the [unintelligible] in the open. Once a city administrator is confirmed, there is no check-and-balance anymore. That relationship between the mayor and an administrator is all that matters, and that administrator will do what the mayor says, or else, as we've seen. In a council-manager form, the "check" that's now placed is that the public is aware of every policy decision that's made by the City, because those policy decisions are made in open session. Whereas now, the council sets policy, as Mr. Berg so ably pointed out, that policy sometimes is allied with what the executive wants. And where does that get resolved? 100% of the time, the way the executive wants it. That is not balanced.

Norma Bruns Okay. We've got a couple of more. Yes sir?

Quintin Young Something was raised about let's make this moral. Part of morality is truth. Part of morality is not only telling the truth, it's upholding the truth. And we have seen how, in this present form of government, and for me it's not an issue of whether it should be mayor-council or council-manager, it's a matter of reversing the proverb of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Now it's broke. The immorality, as I see it, if anybody up here on the panel who is privy to some of this information I've commented, I'm sure we'd love to hear it. But we have recently seen where morality broke down because some of your citizens are being charged for an appeal on a decision where the decision was made on false information. False information provided by city staff, provided by a consultant hired as a quasi-city staff member to give engineering information and to verify documentation. The documentation was false. The ownership of property did not exist. And months after the decision was made that this property would be annexed, finally the owner decides to go after it and get it approved and the city said you can't do it. You don't have title. This is after, in our hearing, we had been told and verified and the hearing examiner had been told, under oath, that this was annexed and that the owner had, owner [unintelligible] title for that property. This was lying. It is perjury. It is against the law, and in this case, I say it's strong evidence and it's not the first time that we've encountered this, that the staff had lied to the council and the council made decisions based on false information. And in my mind, that says the system's broke. And whether it's better or you can trust at 100%, human nature's going to be absolutely trustworthy and people can't do anything wrong, no, you can't 100% trust in that. But this system has a lot more balances in place to prevent that, which would encourage somebody not using lies and deceit as a measure to get their agenda across. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you.

Mary Lowry Hi. I'm Mary Lowry. And I want to say that I agree with the point that I believe Gary was trying to make early on in the evening, kind of saying that we need the right, we need the right person for the right job. And I've seen the work that you do, Gary, and it's fantastic. I wouldn't hesitate, if I could afford it, to have you come and build a house for me. I've also been to numerous city council meetings, and have been frustrated and embarrassed by how much people on the council and the mayor just don't know -- not, I'm not saying anybody's corrupt or has hidden agenda, even though it [drops her voice] might be true -- [laughter] -- they just don't know, because our town has grown so much, as Mark has pointed out. Our budget is huge. It's very complicated. Government is more complicated, the issues are more complicated, and just hiring -- I mean, electing a mayor, I don't think would work, because we have such a small pond here to draw from. And so I support wholeheartedly the idea of a city manager who is trained and skilled in the way Gary is in construction, skilled in managing the problems that we're facing. I think it would be a God-send. Thank you. Back to top

Laura Fox Can you hear me?

Norma Bruns Um-hm.

Laura Fox Hello. My name is Laura Fox, and I'm an 8^th grader at Sultan Middle School. I'm also a Girl Scout. And I've been listening to these arguments, and I think all of them are presented with many opinions behind them, but I actually do have a question. I've noticed that people talk, they're talking about hiring city administrators, which is obviously the issue, but I was thinking about what kind of an education, really, would a city administrator want to have? And a group of people who maybe wasn't necessarily skilled in city management themselves, what methods would they use to select a good city administrator.

Norma Bruns You're talking about the city manager?

Laura Fox Manager. City manager.

Norma Bruns Okay. Fine. Does somebody want to answer that?

Mark Raney The city council actually creates and sets those requirements. There are many different professional organizations that have experience in that. There's an International City Managers Association, which has a code of ethics and a membership criteria that is involved in being a member of that organization. There are many resources in the state. In fact, this form of government is the most popular in the state of Washington at this point. Eighty-seven million people in the country, actually, live in this form of government now. There are, there's a wealth of information out there of, of getting the criteria together, deciding what they will be, and then deciding your selection process, whether it's a group of community people together with government officials or however we do it, it would be a public process out in the open, not decided again behind closed doors.

Laura Fox And where would you go looking? In what area or what mindset would you go looking for a city manager?

Mark Raney Those are usually advertised in various trade journals that target people that are trained, have Masters in public administration or been trained. So there are people that read those journals and are looking for jobs in this area.

Laura Fox Thank you. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you. I just will have room for maybe two more, and then -- all right, we have this lady and the gentleman back here and then -- Oh, my goodness gracious, you are just so talkative! That's wonderful! Okay. I think that we'll -- yeah. And that will be it. Now, you, you, you and you. Okay.

Female My name is [sounds like, "Max"-something]. And first of all, I would like to ask the gentleman if he knew that there was only parking on one side of the street when he bought the house.

Jeff Kirkman I can answer that. No. They changed the CC&R's, meaning the developer, after the fact when they made the deal behind closed doors with the City about the illegalities.

Maxine Purbaugh And another of those gentlemen, I believe, said something about the police chief being asked to resign, or on paid administrative leave. Your chief of police. In Monroe, when Donnetta Walser fired their chief of police, has that ever been disclosed why? No. It has not. Why, then, does the mayor of Sultan have to divulge why he asked Walser to resign? And also, I think the money that is going to go to this would be much better used in the police force because I called the police force two years ago, 911, and I'm still waiting for them to respond [audience laughter and some applause]. And to me, I think that would be much better used, because you can't even talk to the police. They don't know you. They won't, they don't even have time for you. My grandson called them the other night and said over at the school there were kids trying all the doors on the cars that were parked over there. Well, [they said] "We don't even know what you're talking about. We don't have time to come out and check everything like that. I don't believe you know what you're talking about." So they didn't come and check it out. He said, "The heck with it. I won't call them again." And like I said, what they wouldn't do, two years later and they haven't responded? I think we could use the money elsewhere.

John Dick Can I respond to the lady?

Norma Bruns Well, I tell you. Okay. All right. Very quickly, here.

John Dick Okay. I read about what happened in Monroe, okay? I don't pay attention to it like I do in this city that I live in, that I love, that the mayor makes decisions for. I asked my mayor to be accountable for his actions. He could not.

Maxine Purbaugh Well, they asked her, too, she wouldn't respond. Back to top

John Dick That is in Monroe. I love this city and that's where I live --

Norma Bruns Okay, now, what -- yeah? I think we've covered that issue.,

Mark Raney Actually, there's one more part of that, Norma, that he didn't just -- Yes, the police chief was fired in the City of Monroe, but the process was quite different. In fact, they went to Civil Service. There was an investigation and there were findings that were presented to the city council in executive session. Those findings are private, protected under the law. And so city council nor the mayor nor the police chief can disclose those reasons. When they came out of executive session, the council unanimously voted to agree with the mayor's decision to fire the policy chief. What we can do is only assume that they had just cause an a reason. We don't know what that reason was. But government worked because they made it go through the steps of civil service. That didn't happen here. There was no civil service investigation. There was no process.

Norma Bruns Okay. Yes sir?

Fred Venables I've been a resident of Sultan for eight years. I just have a couple of comments. First of all, regarding the firing of the mayor [chief]. I owned a business or ran a business with over 1000 employees, and a personnel issue like that, it would have to be, the mayor could not say anything. Absolutely not. And it was frustrating. I went to many city council meetings and I heard you all asking for why, why, why and he couldn't say why. And your point about the process should have been done a little bit differently, I certainly agree with that. I went to three or four council meetings in the last two or three years, and I was surprised at the acrimony and the lack of cooperation between, I guess the two sides. And as I look at this issue, One, I recognize that we need to have a city manager or administrator or whatever. The job of running the city is very complex. And I believe we did have an administrator before and that position was eliminated because of budget cuts, whatever. I'm not -- that may be wrong. But I firmly believe that. The question remains is, do we have an administrator that reports to the mayor, or do we have a manager that reports to the city council? My fear is that if we have a manager that reports to the city council that can't agree on anything, it's going to turn into a sideshow. And I sincerely hope that whatever comes out of this, that the council works together. It's not happening right now. And actually, Sultan is the laughing stock, you know, of the, of the metro area. It really is. And I think we need to recognize that. Thank you. Back to top

Norma Bruns Okay.

Jill Sumpter My name is Jill Sumpter, and that's a nice segue to what I'd like to say. I'm a community member, I'm a homeowner, I'm a parent, I'm a church member and I teach here in Sultan. And I'd like to encourage all of you to look at who is supporting each of your sides. Take a look at who's paying for all these "yes" and "no" signs. Beware of these misleading signs and instead of being scared away of policies of [unintelligible] tax increases, look how much this is costing us in legal fees and divisiveness. I spend a lot of hours trying to make Sultan a place to be a town to be proud to be from. And you're right. We are the laughing stock. I leave here a lot, and I take groups of students away a lot, and I know this. And it's time to change it. And I'll [unintelligible]. I'll run for mayor or I'll get my husband to run for mayor. We would not be qualified. We would not be qualified to run the business of this town. And we need a representation that would be qualified to do that. This proposition is about caring. I care enough about Sultan to try to help you to understand and accept that Sultan needs a professional manager of its business. It makes sense for this town to elect policymakers that represent us, the people, and then hire someone with the business knowledge to make the business of the town run efficiently and smoothly. In the 13 years that I have lived in town here, this town has changed and grown. I've seen the number of classrooms in this school system double and I've seen the changes in my classroom every day. The elected school board has a system in place to set policy and then hire the people with the expertise to get the job done. And as a parent and teacher, I appreciate that and I've seen it work. And as a community member, it's time to see the town of Sultan run efficiently. It's time for many of us to work to make Sultan be a place to be proud to be from. Let's be proud and take of it, and care enough about Sultan to put all these differences aside. It doesn't matter if you're old or new. I've lived here 13 years. I've taught thousands of students. My house is 100 years, so that should count. I guess now I'm an old-timer. And it's time to vote yes and have some accountability and take care of our town. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you.

Norma Bruns We'll just have one more here, I think. Were you the one who wanted the seat? Okay, fine. And then after this one, we'll have each of our panelists give a rebuttal, just one minute, and that will be it. Thank you.

Will Miller Hello. My name is Will Miller. I'm a student here at Sultan High School, currently a senior. I noticed one of you guys' strongest arguments so far tonight has been that if we do elect a city manager, the people will lose their right to vote. Now, 100 years ago, my great-grandfather signed a document in nice, large letters, John Hancock right across it, to let England know that we deserve the right to vote, and we were going to fight tooth and nail to keep that right to vote. And I personally now have turned 18 and have the right to vote, and I will fight against that tooth and nail to keep that right and will not let anyone take that away from me. So that right to vote is here to stay. And you guys' argument that we're going to lose [it] if we do choose a city manager is completely wrong. That document also says that if we feel any form of government has been corrupt, we can change that, or allowed to change it. And that is what these people have set up to do, to change this government. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you.

Norma Bruns I want to tell you that Sultan should be proud of its school children -- [enthusiastic applause], I tell ya! It's been wonderful to hear their comments and that [unintelligible] very appreciative, because I think we all have read that the younger people aren't voting like they should, but in Sultan it seems like they are. So we'll end this with tit-for-tat here and start with a Pro person. One minute, please, with your rebuttal.

Jeff Kirkman Thank you for coming. One thing that was said tonight is that Sultan is the laughing stock, and I found that out very quickly after moving here. I worked in Bellevue at that time, and people laughed when I told them where I moved to. Especially coming from L.A., you know.

Norma Bruns I think they were laughing at L. A.

Jeff Kirkman I think so -- [audience laughs] -- The enemy is here. I just want to say, can you imagine all of the bad press we've had up to now, being able to abolish that to a certain degree, by putting out a marketing brochure on Sultan saying, "We're open for business. We have a professionally-run city with professionals in place to help you develop your business, develop your housing, to develop your city." Thank you. Back to top

Norma Bruns Okay. Yes. Mr. Wold?

Sam Wold I just hope that there's a complete change in council, without all this bickering. Every time you go down there to a meeting, it's continually bickering, yowling back and forth, hour after hour. I just wish you guys would accept, cooperate.

John Dick I would like to thank you all for coming, too. It's really great to see you, and don’t mistaken (sic) my passion for this for anger. I'll probably hug every one of you, every one of you in this room before I leave this --

Norma Bruns Watch out!

John Dick So I would appreciate a "yes" vote. My children will appreciate a "yes" vote and the future of Sultan -- [someone yells from the audience, "would you hug me if I vote no?"]-- I would hug you if you vote "no." I'll even hug Cheeko! [laughter] Where are you, Cheeko?

Male He went out the door.

John Dick So I would appreciate a "yes" vote and it's just good that you guys are all here to learn about both sides. Thank you. Back to top

Norma Bruns Thank you.

Gary Broughton Well, first of all, let me say is I didn't expect to be up here.

Norma Bruns But I'm glad you are.

Voice from the audience Good for you!

Gary Broughton I hope you're glad, too. But I, but I do, I do have, probably have more, as many personal feelings, maybe more than most, because I have seen this grow. I've seen the logging industry come and go. But we may, we may get a new administrator and we may vote him in. And no matter how smart that administrator is, it's (sic) only as smart as what they're talking (sic) with the council. And so far the council hasn't been too, anything to look at. I, [stutters] that he, the council's supposed to be responsible to them or they're responsible to them (sic), but if the council is not good in the first place, what good is an administrator? Are we going to bicker? I don't know, if, when we went from five to seven, then it got worse. And I'm not going to say it's the individuals that were up [unintelligible] that caused it, but it's been anarchy ever since. You can do, you can get your administrator and you can pay him what, that, whatever cost it is. Or you can get a mayor like you have now, that everybody seems so down on him that I have a real hard time trying to find why. I'm, I know his feelings may not be the same as theirs, but I've never seen a mayor that would give up all his -- for somebody that doesn't care about this city, and gives up all his money that he makes on the council, goes out and works on every planning -- puts money into the Boys Club, built -- donates money for basketball courts and what, whatever, and they have a personal endeavor--debt against him because if may be some of things that they disagree with, but I have to write this [unintelligible] to this man in, and this man out. And I believe him. We, this is a choice of the people. And, and this high school kid -- I don't know his name, but he had something worth saying. He's right. The only thing we have left in this country is our vote. Do we want to give it to the council? They definitely think they're professional. Then you go right ahead. That's why they bicker, because they're so professional. Back to top

Norma Bruns Okay. Yeah?

Mark Raney I have a little trouble with the word, "bicker." Our government allows for the loyal minority to stand up and oppose things that it doesn't agree with. There's another government that was recently removed in a town called Baghdad where everybody voted the same way all of the time, and they got along very well together. [laughter] That's not the goal of our government. We want to have a government where people can disagree, where there's a format that allows for that, for resolution of this, and these problems out in the open. The people on both sides of this issue care about Sultan. We all work outside of our regular jobs. Council members that I know on the council donate their salaries, they just don't do it in public. They're -- it's not okay to say that one side is good for the town and the other side is bad. It's not. Both sides are good. We just need a system that will work. We need stability in this government so we can sell this town. There have been a lot of good things about Sultan on the front page of the paper. Every time the band goes someplace, they represent this town [raucous cheers from, I guess, band members], and everybody talks about Sultan when our band out. There's a lot to believe in in this town, regardless of how this election turns out. Back to top

Norma Bruns Okay. Well, thank you -- ]applause] -- do it for everybody, Yeah. I think of all of the comments that you've heard tonight, you can recognize that certainly running for public office is an important job for anybody. And the League applauds anybody who makes that risk. That it is hard. And it takes a lot of guts to do it. And I think it took a lot nerve for a lot of you to come up here and state your case, and I wish you all the best of luck at your election. Study the issues. I know you will. And as we say, "Vote smart." And thank you for being here. Thank you. [applause]

Debbie Copple I know we all appreciate Norma and the League of Women Voters of Snohomish County, so let's please give her a hand for doing such a wonderful job. [applause] I would also like to thank our speakers strongly enough in their positions to take a stand in public and to try very hard to give us an education. Jeff, John, Mark and especially Sam and Gary, because they came and stood up for what they thought, when other people did not feel strongly enough to support that, and I really give them wholehearted [unintelligible] and thank them very much. [applause]

[end of transcription] Back to top